Let them learn COBOL / PHP isn't evil

6 thoughts on “Let them learn COBOL / PHP isn't evil”

1. Hmm, popular != good. Justin Bieber is popular, is his music good?

   PHP is shit. Even in 2014 it's still shit, an apple rotten to the core. You can sugar coat it, make a toffee apple, but the innards are still putrid.

   I totally disagree with your "PHP is advancing faster than other languages" comment. Seriously, look at the pathetic features added to 5.5 and 5.6, you call that advancement? And note too all the warnings on the 5.6 release notes, that's a perfect example of why it's such a horrible language.

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   1. How do you know I'm not Just Bieber and this is my secret programming blog? I'd be heart broken. Maybe I don't have time to make good music because I'm too busy messing around with code? Ever think of that, smarty pants?

      I said faster than most other languages [on the web], and that's true, but you're implying I said all of them, and I didn't. And the features between 5.5 and 5.6 added were pretty limited, but I'm talking about PHP 7. I was really disappointed with PHP 5.6, but my point is it as a pretty promising future, especially if you consider its past.

      Consider even now its lack of static typing, busted ass OOP implementation, etc and compare it to PHP 4 or even PHP 3, that's a lot of headway, though that was a long time ago comparatively, but things have improved faster over the last 5 years than the previous 5 years before that.

      And not adding more features through 5.5 and 5.6 doesn't prove that it's a horrible language. Sure Python adds a ton of features between each minor version, but it takes a billion years to release each one of them, and even then you get sticklers who want to stay with the old minor versions until the end of time.

      You proved my point though by not actually demonstrating why it was bad, except you did state that it didn't have many features between 5.5 and 5.6 added, etc, but there's no real meat there, it's sort of the same old thing I've heard for the last decade.

      I'm not interested in drinking the valley runoff diarrhea when it comes to what language to use. Obviously Python and Ruby are pretty solid compared to many other "easy" languages, but the point of my post too was that saying stuff like "Erlang" isn't really helpful to people and that COBOL is still vastly, widely used… so if we're talking about a good language to learn for a good future, yeah that'd be one. I sure as hell don't want to learn it though.

      I just think it's irresponsible to dismiss something because it's considered "shitty" by some people, but has a much higher job availability rate and instead promote something that you probably won't be able to easily find a job doing. In this case both PHP and COBOL can probably get you a job a hell of a lot faster than Erlang and Python.

      And unlike COBOL, PHP is making improvements steadily, and I can run it damn near anywhere with little effort, unlike many other languages where I'm taking the day off to get started.

      My #1 hope though with PHP 7, other than static typing and the like, is that it will effectively destroy all the crappy PHP software out there by deprecating a lot of terrible things.

      I have a lot of hope for the platform and I think it's wrong to simply dismiss it, and yeah popular doesn't equal good, but when you talk to industry types, they'll cum all over themselves promoting Python, Ruby, etc but ignore the fact that PHP is so popular to the point where it reaches almost contrarianism rather than logic. I think one of the biggest issues is that more good engineers don't use PHP and instead just circle jerk on to other shit.

      Then again, I'm retarded for C-style languages, and I like Ruby, I use Ruby, but PHP's get up and go quality and C-style syntax wins me over, and that's what I'll limp to the barn with in most cases.

      Hopefully it has a future as a better language, and if I don't see great improvements in PHP 7, I'm almost certainly going to just switch to node.js, and in fact I'm probably going to do that anyway.

      Thanks for commenting :)

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      1. PHP may have progressed but to me it feels like every new feature is something badly bolted on. And when developers ask for really useful features like named parameters the PHP internals group rejects them.

         All of the stuff added in 5.5 and 5.6 has been in Ruby for a looong time. PHP is still playing catch up, and in a very bad way.

         I'm not sure why you're so keen on C-style syntax. I think it's pretty nasty really. Compare:

         
try {
$post = Post::with('comments')->where('id', $id)->first();
} catch (Exception $e) {
$post = false;
}

         if ($post) {
$post->display();
}


         to the Ruby equivalent:

         
post = Post.with(:comments).where(id: post_id).first rescue nil

         post.display unless post.nil?


         To me the Ruby is far easer to read and write. The PHP code is ugly and potentially confusing.

         Having getters and setters built into an object by default avoids all the ugly ->getName() ->setName() style methods you see modern PHP code. Having a method name with a question mark shows its intention clearly, as in:

         user.authenticated?

         Anyway it's personal preference at the end of the day but in 24 years of coding (14 of those with PHP) I've never found any language to be so frustrating and annoying as PHP is. Ruby OTOH I find a joy to use.

         PHP should have done what Python did when it moved from 2 to 3 and break backwards compatibility in order to make the language better. Instead it's more of the same bolting bits together and keeping the godawful confusing naming and syntax . What a shame.

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         1. I agree that things get badly bolted on, case in point: namespaces, but even with the initial bad bolting of OOP, that's improved a lot and in future versions is mapped out to improve even more — I honestly think they're just trying to move it toward Java, it certainly seems that way.

            Ruby was designed very well from the start, PHP wasn't, it was really terrible. Lest we forget things like register_globals and magic_quotes which initially were just a part of PHP and couldn't be turned off. Back then though I used Perl mostly, these days I don't use Perl at all anymore.

            I am very keen on C-style syntax because it's easier for me to read. In your example you used some pretty goofy written PHP code, what is that Laravel? In any case I don't code like that, and from my perspective the Ruby isn't a vast improvement as it's still something I have to parse out in my mind.

            The curly brackets and so forth in C-style languages, including the rigid (yet somewhat bizarre and ugly) syntax help me read things more clearly. This likely has to do with the fact that I suffer from dyslexia. The clear boundaries make things a lot easier, that's why I also enjoyed variable prefix in Perl and later PHP. While I can certainly live without it, I do find myself having to compensate and carefully visualize things. It's the same reason in C-style languages I hate it when people use in-line if-statements without curly brackets on multiple lines, like:

            if (x == 1)
y = 2
else
y = 3;

            Combine this with my literal OCD issues it makes for some seriously rigid and specific coding styles across languages. I enjoy things being specific and clear; I work well within those boundaries.

            While it may not be pretty syntax, it certainly is clear and useful.

            Ruby does have a lot of neat features like the ones you point out though and I wish PHP had them as well. Actually, ideally I wish there was another C-style language which somehow met in the middle.

            I've been coding PHP for about 14 years also, we must've started around the same time, so I'm sure you know what I mean when I talk about the really old, shitty aspects of things like PHP 3 and basically all of PHP 4.

            I agree with PHP breaking backward compatibility, 100% wish they would, and it certainly seems like they're willing to do that with PHP 7 according to a lot I've been reading on their "RFC" site.

            That's why I think too that "Hack" (what a stupid name) is a good influence on PHP's development and I've noticed that since its launch that the PHP developers seem to have increased feature creation and also making general needed changes.

            If I lived in an ideal world, the features of "Hack" would be a part of PHP itself, including additional changes the PHP team has already made. I could live with that.

            In the mean time I still think it shows a lot of promise and its ability to allow people to get started right away makes it really appealing. The primary issue is that it also makes it really easy to make garbage… insanely easy.

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2. Oh, anyone who writes code in if blocks without indenting needs a massive kick in the rear. OTOH braces don't really help IMO since you could also throw braces around five different statements on the same line. Likewise I think the PSR standard of having different rules for the brace being on the same line or next depending on context quite arbitrary.

   I personally prefer the chain syntax you get with Ruby / Python, as in:

   
User[123].name.trim.capitalize.add_greeting


   It's a natural thing for us to read left to right, so it's clear to me that i'm going to trim, capitalize and add a greeting to the name of user with id 123.

   Contrast that with how it'd typically be done in PHP:

   
ucfirst(trim(User::findById(123)->$name->withGreeting()))


   OK, I know you could do all the trimming etc. in the withGreeting() method but my point is that with PHP you typically get this horrible mix of functions, methods and static methods which is a goddamn mess.

   You may not like the syntax I posted but there are tons of libraries and frameworks that work in that way and sooner or later you're forced to work with these things.

   IME, having switched primarily to Ruby, I find that I get about twice the results for the same time investment in my code in the initial writing stage, and finding and fixing bugs is something like three or four times quicker, than with PHP.

   I agree, it's all going very Java-like, no thanks to the likes of PHP "rockstar" Fabien Potencier and his fascination with Java. IMO it's not a good thing. Java was intended to be very strict, structured and organised from the beginning and trying to force a language like PHP to behave like its polar opposite is a mistake. And it's only going to get worse if the PHP7 RFCs are any indication. I honestly wonder who is coming up with some of the crazy ideas they are proposing, like putting getters + setters into a closure in the class declaration? Are you fucking kidding me!?? :-O

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   1. Well, of course you could put all of your code on one line if you're a lunatic, but bad formatting is a sickness anyway.

      I am mostly of the PSR camp, though I do the opening { on the same line, rather than a new line, unless I'm coding in C# because Visual Studio forces me to. I'm sure there's a way to change it, but I don't code enough in C# to care that much.

      Chain syntax is neat, and JavaScript has this as well, though its implementation is crappy compared to Ruby's. It's possible to implement it in PHP by returning $this at the end of the method, but really only works on a class basis if you're a sane person. I wish PHP did have that, I agree. OTOH sometimes my brain has trouble processing the more complex ways of doing it, such as loops and such chained on, and it takes me a second longer than I think some other people, so in Ruby I don't typically do those, though it's not always out of the question.

      There are a lot of things I like about Ruby, but I time everything I code, literally everything, and I found Ruby took me sometimes nearly twice as long to debug and review code, primarily because of the syntax and my wacky brain I believe.

      I don't think it's a bad thing to go toward Java, I still sort of respect Java, but I mostly hate it for a billion different reasons, and for a classic application of course I'd use Ruby over Java period. At any rate I don't think it's a bad thing because I think in the end it may help PHP or perhaps destroy it, and either one I don't have a problem with so long as there's something other than this constant sitting on the edge of shit and being potentially something better. It's still powerful and more easy to get started than Java for sure too.

      Yeah some of the RFCs are nuts but some show a lot of promise and make me optimistic, luckily some of the crazier ones don't get voted as approved.

      Even with all the crappiness I don't think it's a good idea to just disregard PHP in favor of things which take longer for people to get started, especially new people. That does create a situation though where new people can create bad code, and one of the reasons I created this blog too is to talk about the "better" way to do things in PHP, and also talk about phreaking and general programming it seems. I've been reading your blog and it's pretty good, I've even commented to share the love, and the name is great, I love it. Very clever!

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